The Long Road

01/04/2004 Archived Entry: "Devil’s Advocate"

Context

Content:
When I hear Xbox, I think FPSs, sports games, Xbox Live. PS2? RPGs and Fighters. GameCube? Mascot Platformers and party games. These are obviously just general impressions, there is some amount of crossover.

Nintendo’s insistence on pumping out all-ages mascot-based platformers and party games is why it’s stuck with the image of being a console for kids. That, plus the fact that it’s a cute little box with the pretty colours.

Games are all about escapism. They’re about being a badass mercenary, a general, a prince. Adult games are about an emotionally and intellectually interactive experience; they’re about being completely immersed in a complex world with complex characters and relationships. This level of immersion is only truly possible with realistic graphics. That’s why games are constantly approaching real-life. That’s why Solid Snake is more appealing than Mario Mario and that’s why presentation is so important. If it were not, then there’d be no reason to move beyond the N64 since it can do anything gameplay-wise that the Cube, PS2 and Xbox can. The fact that Snake is a violent sum’bitch is ancillary to the enjoyment of Metal Gear Solid, it is because he is in a complex and intriguing plot and a presentation so slick it makes Mario’s eyes bleed that make the game so enjoyable.

The cube is sorely lacking in realistic games, playing as a fat little plumber who jumps around on mushrooms just isn’t all that satisfying an experience; sure Mario and his plethora of Party games can be fun, but where is the suspense, the adrenaline, and the emotion?

As far as innovation goes, no one has been innovative in a very long time. Nintendo’s platformers are all re-dressings of Mario 64. No matter the presentation, you’re still jumping around and looking for meaningless artifacts that will magically solve all your problems.

Replies: 28 comments

I can't agree enough with Thai. Here's my take on it.

Gamers play games; Kids play Game Cube.

It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a fact. Nintendo’s target audience has been (Since the N64 days) and still is: children. Launching with a system closely resembling a child's purple lunch-box, with titles like "Luigi's Mansion" or "Pikmin" will most definately NOT catch the attention of older gamers.

This classic argument has probably been discussed in just about every North American school yard, it just won't die. There's a quite simple reason as to why it won't die; Nintendo Fanboys.

These blinded folk just won't allow their "precious" to go down in History as a child's play thing. No, they argue that the GameCube has its fair share of action/"adult" games, yet ironically these very same people are the ones who claim "PS2 and Xbox sell mainly because they HAVE 'adult' type games".

Well, put one and one together! They SELL for a reason! Games are here to entertain; not bore us to death with nausea-inducing colours! Where else can you play a game where you can take a gun and blow off someone's head without going to jail in REAL life? Not only are games here to entertain, but they're also a means of escape from real life.

It is also understandable that some gamers don't enjoy all the killing and looting. Not everyone harbors a deep twisted side to their fantasies. However, when these same people stand up and say GameCube isn't for kids; they're simply lying to themselves. So you don't like "Adult" games, then stick with your GameCube. Have all the "Rainbow Promoting" Mario games you want, but don't complain like a bitch when people point out the truth.

[On a Side note]

Those that say they bought the GameCube for innovative games, I think it's time to wake up and smell the coffee. As Thai so clearly stated, "NO ONE has been innovative in a very LONG time." The only exclusive games which make HEADLINE news on the GameCube are ones which carry official Nintendo mascot names. Eternal Darkness? How innovative is that? A mystery/horror game with a time-traveling twist, [sarcasm]oh wow that's just SO impressive.[/sarcasm] It's nothing but another mediocre title in the horror genre created by Resident Evil/Capcom.

Mario Kart : Double Dash!! Yet another incarnation of the Mario Karting franchise; there isn't anything INNOVATIVE here! All they added was a two-player piggy-back on one-kart twist! The best part? Legions of fanboys still claim it's a DRASTIC change from the old N64 version; "Nintendo certainly can't do any wrong."

It's only the inevitable; Nintendo is slowly going the way of the Sega. There is no doubt they will still reign as King in the hand-held market, but as for home-consoles, people are growing up. And if Nintendo can't let go of the fact that they rake in millions from all these "Fanboys" whenever they release a triple-crown game, they'll be losing billions soon enough.

Posted by Dave @ 01/04/2004 05:01 PM EST

It seems that both of you are looking at only a very small selection of GameCube games. Sure I can prove any point I want, if I exclude all the data that doesn't support my point. In addition, I highly doubt you've played many of the games you've criticized.

I am a GameCube owner. I wanted one of the present generation consoles for a while and for a time was in deep deliberation over which console to get. I liked that the Xbox and PS2 could both play DVDs but I have a computer on which I can do that.

When I looked at every game out on Xbox, it was either already available for the PC or coming soon, so that ruled out the giant box.

For the PS2, the graphics of it, while still nice, aren't up to the same standards as the other two. For a while I was all set to get a PS2 anyway but only because Silent Hill 2 was only available for it. Then they released it for both the Xbox and the PC and the one lure to the PS2 was gone.

I decided on a GameCube and haven't regretted the decision in the slightest.

Some of the games I have for the GameCube? Beyond Good and Evil, Metroid Prime, Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, Soul Calibur 2, Turok: Evolution, Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance, Rogue Leader and Gauntlet: Dark Legacy. There are games where the primary gameplay aspect is killing things or beating shit up. In fact, the ESRB rating for all these games is either Teen or Mature.

Sure, I have other games that you seem to classify as kid games. Games like Double Dash!!, StarFox Adventures, Windwaker and Mario Party. I haven’t yet played through Windwaker but I hear it's a really enjoyable game. StarFox Adventures was really fun, too. Sometimes, I like to sit down with friends and play a game of Mario Party. As for Double Dash!!, well that's just good frantic fun.

Is the Cube only for kids? Hell no. Is it marketed so they can enjoy it too? You bet - it's for everyone. It has a wide variety of games that everyone can enjoy. Just one more factor that makes it so good.

It's hard to respond to so much groundless garbage from two people, especially when some of it contradicts other bits, but I'll try to do my best.

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Dear Rayne:

While Nintendo does produce games for all ages there are a whole lot of other games available for the GameCube. Ones where the main character is a fucking badass and isn't some plumber. You say the GameCube is a cute little box with pretty colours. I'll admit it's not the huge piece of hardware the Xbox is but pretty colours? Sure it's available in Indigo (who are we kidding - the thing is purple) but it also comes in black, just like the other consoles. Nintendo has simply given people a choice. In fact, they even have a platinum edition out which looks rather spiffy and not very childish at all.

Games are about escapism. I couldn't agree with you more. They're a form of entertainment. You want to be immersed in a complex world with complex characters and relationships? Come over and play Beyond Good and Evil on my Cube. It's fantastic. You say that level of immersion is only possible with realistic graphics? I disagree with you there but I can see where you're coming from. Some people can't be truly immersed in something unless it looks realistic. Myself and many others can be immersed in a pen and paper game of D&D but if you need the graphics, then fine. The GameCube can offer them, better than the PS2 actually.

You seem to have this notion that GameCube = Mario, when it doesn't. Out of my games, Mario's only present in two. Two out of sixteen. And in both of those, he's not the main character, he's a character you can choose to play as. You know what? I never choose him. He's kind of annoying.

You really like an intriguing plot and a slick presentation? I've got a bunch of games that meet those requirements, too. Come on over and enjoy it all with my GameCube.

The GameCube is lacking in realistic games? Where have you been looking for games? I mean, there are various levels of realistic but how about Splinter Cell? We also have Rainbow Six 3, Ghost Recon or the many sports games such as NASCAR Thunder and a bunch of others NBA, NFL, NHL and snowboarding games.

No, I agree that playing as a plumber who eats mushrooms and stalks around in sewers all the time isn't enjoyable but that's an incredibly small selection of all the games available on the GameCube.

You speak of Nintendo's lack of innovation and then go on to criticize their platformers. Fine, you don't like platformers? Then play another game! The majority of games that are really good for the PS2 are not made by Sony and the coolest games for Xbox aren't necessarily made by Microsoft. So why do you have to buy only games made by Nintendo for the GameCube You don't. There are hundreds of games available for the GameCube with very few featuring some fat plumber, try those.

I know the title of this journal entry of yours is "Devil’s Advocate," so hopefully you don't seriously believe in what you've written but if you do, then you should really look at more of the games available on the GameCube because the problems you seem to have with the system is that you're thinking of only Mario Sunshine and Mario Party.

Sincerely,

Romer

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Dear Dave:

I am a gamer. I don't know that there's a specific definition of it, but I think it's safe to say I am one of them. Do I play games? You bet. I play many of them. Often. Do I play GameCube? Yep. Would I play on the PS2 or Xbox if I had access to them? Probably because they're games and as a gamer, I like games.

So since I play on the GameCube, am I a kid? Well, 21 may not be all that old to some people but I'm certainly not the kid you're referring to.

You say the GameCube resembles a purple lunchbox? As a kid, did you have a purple lunchbox? You know purple's a pretty girly colour for a kid to have, but I suppose there's nothing wrong with that. Myself, I never had a near-cube-shaped lunchbox and I never saw anyone who did. Usually they were mostly rectangular or just bags. But really, what does it matter? The PS2 looks like a stylized version of the 2001 monolith and the Xbox is just huge in comparison. Does the look of the device really matter so much to you? Then fine, the GameCube also comes in Black, to match your coveted PS2 and Xbox. Or, you could opt for the Platinum colour as I did and it'll match the majority of other expensive electronic devices available.

You mention that they have titles like Luigi's Mansion and Pikman. Well, yes. Those are not targeting adults. I bet you could pick two games that target just about any age group and base a whole post around it (hmmm... that almost sounds like fun). Above I mentioned what, about nine games that were not targeting kids at all.

You want more? How about Splinter Cell, Price of Persia, F-Zero GX, SSX 3 and Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time?

You speak of Nintendo fanboys. I won't say I dislike Nintendo, because I don't, but I wouldn't say I'm a fanboy. I wouldn't even say I like them better than Sony (though I do like Sony and Nintendo better than Microsoft). However Nintendo has been making games and systems since Christ was a cowboy and I'd say they're pretty good at it.

From Dave's comment, ...they argue that the GameCube has its fair share of action/"adult" games, yet ironically these very same people are the ones who claim "PS2 and Xbox sell mainly because they HAVE 'adult' type games"

Argue that the GameCube has a fair number of action/adult games? Of course, because it's true and you seem bent on lying about it. However unlike your false statement above, I have never said that and don't at all believe it. They sell because of a number of reasons including advertising. GameCube sells for the same reason. All three sell because of the games available to them, yes, however I think/hope a person chooses a console based on weather the games on it suit their tastes.

Above, I detailed my decision-making process. The Xbox games suited my taste, yes, but they weren't anything I couldn't get on my PC whereas the GameCube offered me games that were available only to consoles and only to the Cube itself.

They sell for a reason? Yes, that they do. Games are definitely a form of entertainment. But nausea-inducing colours and boredom? What games are you playing? I must say, I've never seen a game with nausea-inducing colours and yet I own a GameCube. I guess this means that people play better games than you do.

You want a game where you can take a gun and blow someone's head off? Fine. I've named a number of them above. I agree that games are an escape from real life. That's why immersing yourself in a lush and detailed world as found in such games as Beyond Good and Evil or StarFox Adventures is so enjoyable.

You state that those who like the GameCube are those who don't enjoy killing and looting. Well, you're wrong there, too. Most of my favourite games involve killing. I spend hours at night playing Halo online and loved every second of Postal 2 (as a side note: I was rated a Prozac-Powered Gun Nut). Yet I think the GameCube is great. I can hop on it and beat the shit out of people in Soul Calibur 2 and Mortal Kombat or I can pick up firearms in Timesplitters 2 and Metroid Prime. No? okay, I can hack and slash uruk-hai to death in The Two Towers or Return of the King.

It seems that you associate Nintendo with Mario and rainbows. For someone who appreciates violence as I do, I must say I'm surprised. I myself recognize that games such as those are available for the GameCube but I don't play them often because they're not my preference. I've never played Mario 64 or the GameCube's Mario Sunshine and I don't think I really have any desire to. The GameCube has good games, you just seem to have this lie in your mind that you can't get past: That all the GameCube is are kids games.

Perhaps it is just that you have this preconceived idea about the GameCube, Dave, but it really seems like you're not looking at all that the console has to offer.

As to address your side note, you say there's no innovation on the GameCube. Well, if you generalize any game enough it becomes the same game as a bunch of others. I'm not sure what kind of innovation you're looking for but I think games like WarioWare Inc.: Mega Microgames are pretty innovative. Is it available for the GameCube? Well, it is in Japan and eventually in the US but you know what? I didn't buy a GameCube just for games that were totally new to the world. More innovation? what about Viewtiful Joe? There are plenty of other games but if you're just going to generalize every game then every game is the same.

As for Double Dash!! I admit it's much the same as the N64 version but you know what? It's still a whole lot of fun to play. The addition of a second player makes it different. You seem to think it isn't anything special but something somewhat simple like that really does make the game different. For those of us who played and really liked the N64 version, it is such a different experience playing with someone else in the same cart. The co-operative mode is incredibly large amount of fun. Is it innovative? I don't know especially since you didn't provide any indications of what you might consider to be innovative. all you did was strip away the innovative sides of games and then declare them to be the same as everything else.

So to close, Dave, it seems (as I've said above) that when you think of the GameCube, you're thinking of mostly Mario Sunshine and Mario Party with a bit of Double Dash!! and Eternal Darkness thrown in.

I wonder, though, if you've ever played any of those games. Because you know what, even though they may not be the adult games whose existence on the GameCube you ignore, they're still a lot of fun.

And you know something, fun is the main goal of games.

Sincerely,

Romer the Gamer

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Interestingly, if you look at the Gamers' Choice Awards for 2003, the games actual gamers such as myself choose as the best, the list for GameCube doesn't include any games with a plumber protagonist or nausea-inducing colours. In looking at the top ten GameCube games as chosen by the editors of GameSpy, there also is not a single game where you play as a plumber or which includes those colours Dave is so fond of. In fact, it's full of action, adventure, sports and RPG games. Finally, in looking at the Top Ten Games Overall, the majority of them are available on the GameCube.

So in closing, I would really like to point out that while Rayne started his entry by saying that it was just his impression that the GameCube was just for kids, that impression is really not correct. As for Dave saying that it just was only for kids, that is also not true. There are a whole lot of games available for the GameCube and the majority are not just for kids.

Posted by Romer @ 01/04/2004 08:06 PM EST

Games you own: Beyond Good and Evil, Metroid Prime, Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, Soul Calibur 2, Turok: Evolution, Mortal Kombat: Deadly Alliance, Rogue Leader, Gauntlet: Dark Legacy, Double Dash!!, StarFox Adventures, Windwaker and Mario Party

Only Metroid Prime, Rogue Leader, Double Dash, Star Fox Adventures, Windwaker and Mario Party are Cube exclusives and in the end only the exclusive games matter in any comparison of game consoles. Take Rogue Leader out of that list and you have first and second party Nintendo Mascot games. Double Dash, Star Fox Adventures, Windwaker and Mario Party are games, and I say with certainty and without research, that will appeal mainly to those who are already familiar with the characters, or the parents thereof. And that’s the point, Nintendo’s games are marketed at an all-ages group using the already familiar characters. Yes, Capcom has also given Nintendo some exclusive, mature fare but what is one developer in the face of Sony and Microsoft’s army of loyal developers?

Its all hearsay which console is the more “powerful”, and I know it’s generally agreed that the Cube has more horsepower than the PS2 but XboX is King all. But what does it all matter? If games were still only being made for SNES no one would care how powerful any system is.

Posted by Rayne @ 01/04/2004 09:01 PM EST

Lol. Romer, I'm not too sure you were helping your own case in that lenghthy response.

You list out a bunch of games you own and then go on about how Thai and I are wrong.

First off, half the games you own/listed aren't even exclusive to your precious 'Cube. So what difference does it make listing them here? I can go out and play those on Xbox and PS2, your point?

I said GameCube is for kids, and I'm not too sure you understand what I mean by it. I tried to keep that opening sentence simple, honest.

As Thai said, it is the exclusive content that a system offers which makes or breaks it. In terms of "adult" content, the GameCube is but a thread in a stack of hay. Xbox and PS2 hay that is.

So, in "closing", your entire post is nothing more than useless Bitching; fanboy or not.

-Dave

Posted by Dave @ 01/04/2004 09:24 PM EST

"Adult games" should be about complex problems, realistic graphics, etc. They should NOT be exclusively about death. They are, though.

Gamecube purchasers buy it because they enjoy games. Xbox purchasers buy it because they hate life.

Posted by Joe @ 01/04/2004 09:42 PM EST

Why should only system-specific titles matter? Let's not forget the overall thing being debated: That the GameCube is primarily for kids. When you look at all the games, it really isn't. There are a lot of great games out there that are really fun. Many of them are targeted towards adults and many are targeted towards all-ages.

I find it interesting that you again take a list and then put a bunch of qualifiers on it that narrow it down to suit your discussion. If we're talking about the GameCube being for kids only, let's look at the games. The games that are available for it. All of them. That's the test. That's the thing. Oh, you can narrow down the games to a list that proves your point? That's garbage.

But alright, you want to discuss the GameCube specific games I own, so be it. They are largely made with the characters Nintendo owns, yes. What do you expect? If you want a game made by Nintendo then they'll probably use their characters. Why is that surprising? That doesn't make them bad, in fact it doesn't make them any less good at all.

Characters that we're familiar with are fine. Otherwise they wouldn't make movies of Lord of the Rings or Spiderman because no one would want to see them.

So Nintendo's games are marketed towards all-ages? What's wrong with that? All-ages doesn't mean kids, it means all the ages from a spectrum of ages. Have you really tried playing any of the games you mentioned? Something like StarFox Adventures may be rated so that younger people play it, but I doubt they'll enjoy it as much as I did. I also can't imagine a group of younger people enjoying a game of Double Dash!! as much as I and my friends do.

A movie like 'Finding Nemo' is rated G, which means it's for all-ages, too. Yet I wouldn't consider it a movie just for kids. Movies like that are suitable for children but are just as entertaining for adults, too.

As for powerful systems, it should' matter but it does. People DO care about it and all the "what ifs" you may make therefore don't really matter.

Posted by Romer @ 01/04/2004 09:46 PM EST

That's kinda funny Dave, because I thought your post was a bunch of bitching, myself.

I really don't think you shoudl be comparing only exclusive games because it's not like those are the only games available for the system. You want to debate the system? Then debate all of it. Stop limiting your criteria to prove your point. It's just dumb.

Posted by Romer @ 01/04/2004 09:48 PM EST

As for what Joe has to say, I agree that GameCube purchasers but it because they like games. As for the Xbox games hating life... well...

Posted by Romer @ 01/04/2004 09:49 PM EST

Romer:

I'm sorry, but you still aren't making much sense to me.

"You want to debate the system? Then debate all of it. Stop limiting your criteria to prove your point. It's just dumb. "

Lol. I'll tell you what's dumb here, the way you assumed I wanted to debate the system overall. You said it yourself in your first reply,

"As for Dave saying that it just was only for kids, that is also not true.",

it's only been like 5 hours.
Nothing's changed buddy, I'm still saying GameCube's for kids, not "GameCube sucks as a system, I'm gonna only list kiddy stuff to prove it."

I "limited my criteria" for a reason, because it proves my point. Unlike yourself, I feel no need to throw in a plethora of useless information to back my point. (Naming games which are on every system, what gives man? Seriously? lol)

GameCube is for Kids. I stated all my reasons for believing so. What else is there to say?

Posted by Dave @ 01/04/2004 10:07 PM EST

I agree with Dave. Gamecube is for kids. It's also for adults.

If you want good games, you buy a gamecube. If you want to be cool, you buy an Xbox.

Posted by Joe @ 01/04/2004 10:34 PM EST

Lol, Joe your comments are both amusing and bewildering at the same time. :)

Posted by Dave @ 01/04/2004 11:15 PM EST

If I’m going to be looking into buying a console I’m not going to be interested in what games I can get for that console that are available for every other console out there. Why if every console had every game then there is no purchasing decision to be made since they’re all identical! So your purchasing decision and your impression of the console is based on its exclusive content. And Nintendo’s exclusive content, more often than not, is simple mascot based games. Simple mascot based games means a young target audience. A young target audience means the GameCube is aimed at kids.

As an example of a non-death “adult game”, I’d like to say the Final Fantasy franchise. They have deeply detailed worlds and characters with themes of love, sacrifice, and peace. Yes, violence is part of the game but it’s not THE game.

A console's processing power matters very little in the scheme of things, or else game gear would have destroyed gameboy, neo geo would have ruled the 16 bit era and xbox would have ten million japanese gamer slaves. You brought it up in your comment, jerome, as something that actually matters and I'm saying no it doesn't. All three current consoles are close enough in how many poligons they can push that you bragging over the Cube's advantage over the ps2 is meaningless.

If Xbox is for people who hate life then Gamecube is for kids.

Posted by Rayne @ 01/04/2004 11:43 PM EST

Note: I own none of the 3 systems and I have played them all, so I would say that my opinion is pretty objective.

Fact: a large portion of games that people play (including many games listed above) are available on all 3 systems.

Fact: When deciding on a system to get i would base it on the games only available to each system, since looking at the others would be pointless because i could get them on any system.

Fact: The majority of GameCube specific games are aimed at a younger audience. (Sure I'll go out and play them too and enjoy them but when you analyze who nintendo is trying to suck in it is a younger generation than you or I).

Conclusion: When you look at a system you aren't really looking at it for ALL of the games available (because so many of those are on the other systems as well), you look at it for what is specifically available for that system. And when you look at the GameCube it's system specific games are targeting young people (hell let's even say kids). So if targeting a younger audience with your system's games makes you a "System for Kids" in the eyes of some people then I would have to say that yes, GameCube is a System for Kids.

Do I still like gamecube and all it's child-targeting games? Yes. Will I lie to myself and say that gamecube itself is not targeting children and younger people? No.

I could make comments about so many little details over all of these posts but I just think it would be pointless. I gave a general look at it all, mentioning no game names. Let me know if you think any of my facts are wrong, I'd be happy to hear what you have to say about them. But I'm 99.9% sure that they are all right, and my conclusion makes perfect sense. Just think about it. And I'm a fan of the GameCube, but i don't feel the need to try and defend it when it seems pretty obvious that it is trying to attract children. Even if adults can and will play these games it doesn't change who nintendo was targeting: THE KIDS!

Sincerly, Mike the not-so-hardcore-gamer

Posted by Mike @ 01/04/2004 11:51 PM EST

Fact: When looking to buy a system, you don't look at which games are exclusive to the system alone, you look at which system is easiest to mod. And which you can get the most out of from modding it, and in the end save you the most money.

Example: Xbox's swappable HDD =D

Posted by Anonymous @ 01/05/2004 12:33 AM EST

Gamers.... ;)

Posted by Hyperion @ 01/05/2004 02:46 AM EST

I'm going to take the road of three different people I've talked to and not bother saying anything else. I countered each point of Dave's directly and then he just responds with some blanket statement about how I was unsuccessful. Garbage debating.

I want to write a post explaining how wrong he is, but I don't feel like wasting me time on him when he probably won't understand it anyway!

Posted by Romer @ 01/05/2004 02:51 AM EST

Though I've given up on Dave, I did quickly want to stab Mike Ruth a bit in the eye.

*stab stab stab*

Also, because you owen none of the three consoles does not make you objective: It means you have no experience, nothing to base your so-called facts on and no frame of reference and so I say to you, "Shut the fuck up, Donny."

Your first two facts have nothing to do with the GameCube being just for kids and the third fact isn't true in the way you want it to be. The majority of games may be suitable for kids but they're aimed at everybody so that everyone can play and enjoy them.

So what makes a game specifically adult? Killing and the ability to lop off limbs? That's it? You're saying that Metroid Prime and Windwaker are therefore not for adults?

But then I'll admit, "[you're] a Ruth (which is more knowledgable then an expert)."

[Quote courtesy of Inferno]

Posted by Romer @ 01/05/2004 03:05 AM EST

i hate you. i haven't even read anything here, but i know what's being said.

the the games that you're specifying as adult are the realistic gun-totting wet-your-pants blow-off-a-limb type games, right? the dark gloomy mysterious action thriller where you're a spy and you shoot everyone that says "STOP! INTRUDER!"? this is the type of game that you're specifying as "aimed for adults"? so does that mean that just because you can't hack off limbs in zelda, it's not meant for adults to play? or not aimed at adults? seriously, shut up already.

Posted by shawnathan @ 01/05/2004 03:07 AM EST

shawn, read the thing before you run off at the mouth.

Posted by Rayne @ 01/05/2004 07:16 AM EST

it's interesting all the emotions that get stirred up when boys talk about video games. nintendo's target audience is the younger generation, yes ... and i think it's quite good of them to go for that somewhat niche market ... however, what worked in the past doesn't always work in the future ... and soon they'll dearly pay for the assumption it does. that is all.

Posted by melpie @ 01/05/2004 09:54 AM EST

Rayne...I think Shawanathan was right on the money.. it is a predictable discussion!

Posted by LauraAnn @ 01/05/2004 10:39 AM EST

no, Joe was "on the money". Shawn's just making getting a loan from him.

and I've already said: "Adult games are about an emotionally and intellectually interactive experience; they’re about being completely immersed in a complex world with complex characters and relationships."

Which do exist, many of them not based entirely on violence.

Posted by Rayne @ 01/05/2004 12:04 PM EST

Okay, I'm not on any side in this debate, I'm not an extremist like Jerome or Dave, I'm just someone who can observe (like pretty much anyone in a first world country) the marketing strategy of Nintendo. Nowhere in my post did I say that GC is JUST for kids. In fact if you would actually read the post with any amount of scrutiny you would see that I myself certainly don't pin the system as being a "Just for kids system" I merely state how I can see how people can have that attitude. I myself just feel that the GC system specific games are marketed at a younger generation than the other two systems. I love Nintendo and I always have but I can see how they market to kids, it's pretty obvious. I'm not trying ot jump onto Thai's side with this, just merely pointing out that while the GC games can be played and enjoyed by people of all ages that they are still marketing to a younger generation. I mean come on, can you really say that isn't true? Call up Nintendo and ask them yourself if you really need the proof, otherwise just open your eyes to what everyone should be able to see.

Everyone has to pick a group to market to, that's a given fact (I'm sure melpie could back me up there). It's like radio. For example, stations like the edge, FM96, and the now defunct XFM, market to 18-24 year old males. Sure anyone can listen to it and even my 47 year old mother listens to it, but the fact is they are marketing the product with that group in mind, and if other groups enjoy it than they can feel free to listen to it. A good number of GC specfic games are marketed to an audience of kids (mostly male) ages 6-12, and trying to include 12-18. Anyone can play these games, infact parts of the game probably won't be fully understood by people in the target age group but you have to understand that the marketing for the game is done on the surface level, so when you first look at the game it would appeal more to kids but then adults can enjoy it to. Just like Finding Nemo. There is no such thing as an "Everyone" movie or video game (and in the Rating of E for Everyone they are purely getting at the fact that it can include all ages when someone chooses to play it, you don't normally see a video game that says its only for kids, but you never see a max age on it either. I guess what I am getting at here is that it should really mean that the game can be played by anyone, but not everyone will enjoy it). I mean sure these games and movies can be played or watched by anyone from birth to the oldest person alive, but that doesn't mean that they are trying to target everyone in that range, they are usually trying to target one specific group, and then be as flexible as they can be so that others can try to enjoy as well. But that doesn't mean we should go out and say "Finding Nemo is an Everyone movie", it's still a kids movie but it has enough strategy in it to be able to appeal to the adults and other people that end up having to watch it as well.

And I'm just listing facts up there, if they are wrong tell me and then prove it, don't just say it isn't true. And none of the facts say that GC is just for kids, they just help to show that GC is aimed at a younger generation, plain and simple. I Really don't think, Jerome, that you've done anything to try and prove your point "that game cube is not just for kids", of which I agree with you, but I think you should just read over the things i have said and see if you can understand that GC is marketing a lot of product at a younger generation, and who knows, maybe it's a smart thing to do, I know I'm not complaining about it at all, I love GC. It is by far my fave of the 3, I back nintendo a lot. But just looking at Zelda: Windwaker (and trying to play it as well) i just didn't find it ranked up with the other games. I think they tried to go with a new style aimed more at kids while still keeping the plot fairly complex, but (in my mind) it just didn't do that great a job.

So just because i haven't gone out and spent hundreds of dollars on systems and games doesn't mean i can't go out and play the systems (sometimes even as much as if i owned it) to gain experience. Hell I probably have more experience on these new consoles than some people who own them. I know what games are out there. I've played tons of them. I've seen the marketing techniques and they way they are producing games out there. And you don't even have to play the games to see who they are marketing too, hell the marketing team would more than likely have nothing to do with the final design of the game and maybe even never play it but they can still tell the designers "make a new game, we want to market it at kids but then still make it playable by others in the end" and then boom, you get games like mario and zelda, that even though they are marketed at kids, can still be enjoyed by other groups. You can look at it like a bell curve. They want people in the target age to be the middle porton of the curve, and then other ages groups to be the tails.

To me it seems pretty obvious that they market a good portion of their system specific games to a younger generation, but then again that's just me. And then again I don't own the system myself so who am I to say.

Again if you think I'm wrong than prove me wrong, easy as that. I'm not trying to defend either side, just present how I see things. I don't think Nintendo needs anyone to rush to their defence if someone calls them a "system for kids". I think they do just fine on their own and if they really cared they would probably comment on it, they don't need anyone here jumping to defend them.

Posted by Mike @ 01/05/2004 12:08 PM EST

Mike: I totally agree with your first reply. GameCube is for kids; yes. Does that mean adults can't enjoy them? Probably not.

Romer:
For someone desperately trying to prove a point, GameCube != kids, you definately aren't helping your case by acting like one.

"but I don't feel like wasting me time on him when he probably won't understand it anyway!"

Right. I'm not surprised really, you've obviously exhausted your supply of points here.

Here's all your replies combined into a nutshell.
---------------------------------
GameCube isn't for kids. Thai and Dave, you are SO wrong. Proof? Here:

*Lists a bunch of non-exclusive (arguably) adult games*

*Lists six gamecube exclusive games*

[Metroid Prime, Rogue Leader, Double Dash, Star Fox Adventures, Windwaker and Mario Party]

I'm right, you're wrong. I'm not gonna waste my time any longer, because you probably won't get it!
-----------------------------------
*Ahem*

As I was saying, GameCube's target audience WAS, IS, and (chances are this late in the game) WILL continue to be children/younger audience/kids.

Posted by Dave @ 01/05/2004 02:52 PM EST

Wow Thai. I've never seen one of your entries get such...long and...passionate replies. Interesting what subjects get the most attention.

Now that I've said that...
Are we still going on about this? What does it matter, really? None of these companies need any of us to defend them. They're all making tons and tons of money. Each one has found a way to make their games so that they make $$. Everyone has their own opinions. Why are you fighting about it?

Posted by Andrea @ 01/05/2004 03:15 PM EST

there's always that ridiculous matrix reloaded entry...

Posted by Rayne @ 01/05/2004 03:41 PM EST

i wonder if anyone will read this...

okay, i've finally read the whole thing. it's really late right now.

i don't even know if i have anything that i can add. and i stand by my comment that games targeted at adults are the ones where you can shoot people at any of 239 differnt points on their body and they will react differently. these are the games rated as mature, because they have content which is inappropriate for anyone less than an adult.

thai says that games that have deep love stories are target towards adults. i say they aren't specifically targeted at adults. teenagers, and i'll bet even youngsters can enjoy them, and probably even understand something of what is going on. beaty and the beast was a love story after all, and it was certainly targeted towards young kids. i mean, it's a disney movie after all!

again, i ask myself why i'm even writing this. it's so old, and i bet i'll just get berated..

right now, as it stands, the only reason i would buy a ps2 would be to play final fantasy x and x-2, and maybe grand turismo. the only reason to buy an x-box would be to play halo (and maybe halo 2, whenever it comes out). the only reason to buy a gamecube would be to play final fantasy crystal cronicles, f-zero gx, zelda wind waker, play as link in soul calibur, play a star fox space shooter game (hopefully they'll actually make one soon), play as yoshi and mario in mario kart double dash... and SONIC! gamecube has SONIC NOW! i mean, DUDE! i LOVE SONIC!

the x-box contains nameless, faceless characters, which inspire no sense of loyalty in me. damnit. i saw this great penny arcade comic that would make total sense with this. but i can't find it. i mean it was perfect. it mentioned soccer guy, and basketball guy, and racing guy, and football guy... i love football guy!

but now it's like 2 hours later and i didn't find the pa comic i wanted to link to and i'm really starting to feel tired.

the point was that i like characters i know. football guy is some nameless guy on a game box that i don't know. he doesn't inspire me and make me want to go out and buy his football game. now if it was mario football, i'm instantly more interested. i KNOW mario. i've played his other games, and they were good. i enjoyed them.

there are those among us who are kids at heart. we want the games from nintendo that are "marketed towards kids", as you put it. but when i see comercials for windwaker and star fox adventures and mario sunshine and FINAL FANTASY CRYSTAL CHRONICLES, i am enthralled. they are marketing them towards ME.

good night people.

Posted by shawnathan @ 02/15/2004 07:22 AM EST

notice he said "deep" love story, and "complex" plots. I hardly see beauty and the beast as being complex or deep, but hey, that's just me. And if a game can be enjoyed by younger audiences (teenagers, kids) that doesn't change that they might not be in the target audience. Such as that if a GC is marketed at kids, it can still be enjoyed by others. I think this point is just not getting through to people. I think Melpie should get in here and give a little marketing 101 course.

Shawn, I understand you enjoy characters you already know and love, but there was a point where you didn't know them and you had to give them a shot. Then you found out you enjoyed them. Liking a old character you already knew should not discourage you from learning to like and appreciate a new character.

Maybe the athletes don't mean anything to you because, surpise surprise, you don't follow any sports. If I see the cover of NHL 2004 I'm thinking to myself "damn, that danny heatly guy really makes me want to play this game because he rocks the kasbah".

But really the other systems do have characters that can possibly inspire the following that mario et al do, but it takes time and actually giving them a try to do that. I can understand if you just don't like them because of some good reason, but not just because of the fact that they aren't characters you already know.

now back to the books.

Posted by Mike @ 02/15/2004 05:07 PM EST