11/09/2005 Archived Entry: "Science is Useless!"

Intelligent Design has been on my radar for a few months now. I even went to the extent of watching a pro-ID “documentary” for some extra insight. ID basically says that some things in this universe are so complex that they weren’t achieved by evolution but by design, by GOD. It is creationism wrapped in scientific language.

The fight between science and godwarriors came to some kind of head this week as the Kansas school board decided that they would teach ID in science classes. To do this “The board rewrote the definition of science, so that it is no longer limited to the search for natural explanations of phenomena.” THEY REWROTE THE DEFINITION OF SCIENCE! The supernatural is now a valid explanation for scientific problems! A bunch of politicians did this!

Some points follow.

If you stumble onto something that you can’t figure out, then Kansas says that it must be the work of god. If we start attributing more and more things to a creator, when does the search for natural explanations end?

Just because Evolution can’t explain everything right this instant doesn’t mean that it won’t explain it eventually. Real science will one day debunk ID.

Life, the universe, and everything is not so complex and beautiful because it was created by some mastermind, it is even more complex and beautiful if it all arose by chance.

I think the American south really does need to become its own country. I got actively angrier and angrier as I was reading that CNN article.

Replies: 41 comments

It all came crumbling around me one night when Thai and I were playing in a poker tournament at the Royal Oak. So we were seeing flops, dishing out hands, garnering chips...like any typical poker game where Thai and I are kicking ass (we took 2nd and 1st, respectively). Anyways, enough with the gloating. While we're there, this philosophical group comes down to the basement and holds a discussion. I'm sitting there, holding three of a kind when someone from their group states, "what's the point of science?". Such ignorance! I couldn't hold back. To keep a long story short, we integrated ourselves into their discussion and bashed their philosophical principles. Some of them gave philosophy a really bad name, except one particular girl which Thai didn't make a move on. Damn it Thai! You were playing poker that night for a reason and it wasn't to come second in BOTH poker and the game of life.

Anyway, covering too many topics at once here. I can't believe a beer wielding university student would sink so low as to state that science is pointless. Where the fuck did the beer come from?! Intelligent design? Oh, definitely...but not by some higher being.

As for trying to explain things through creationism, it doesn't work. Why? Because it doesn't give an explanation for anything. Its intellectual lazyness! Such thoughts will only put our creative minds into hibernation. Although, I doubt the South has many brains capable of achieving such divergent thinking in the first place.

Perhaps they're brainwashing their youth so that they can lead a Crusade into the heart of the middle east in the future.

Posted by dAN @ 11/09/2005 09:46 PM EST

What was the name of the documentary you watched Thai? Campus Crusade for Christ (UBC) is showing 'The Priveleged Planet' this week. I thought it was pretty interesting.

Does ID really say that "some things in this universe are so complex that they weren’t achieved by evolution but by design, by GOD"? What's wrong with thinking that the theory of evolution may be very valid and still believing that "God" made it happen? Sure, it's not scientific and can't be proven but it's a valid belief nonetheless.

That's pretty crazy about the Kansas thing...

Posted by k1m @ 11/09/2005 10:52 PM EST

the problem is that Evolution contradicts "creationism" the idea that god created the world in 6 days and made man in his image. I have no problems with people who believe that Evolution is a tool god used to set things in motion, but believing in the 6 days thing is a bit ugh...

Posted by Rayne @ 11/09/2005 11:02 PM EST

Evolution and God don't mix...think about it...no really...think about it.

Posted by dAN @ 11/09/2005 11:29 PM EST

I think your first comment is longer than my post, dAN.

That poker game was indeed awesome. We totally ruckused everyone. And as for the girl...she was pretty hot, and smart. But it's not like I could just abandon a poker game to go shout down some pretend intellectuals, now is it?

You seem more dissapointed in my not talking to her than I am! I'll make you a deal, if we hang out at royal oak next thursday and they show up, I'll do something.

The documentary I watched is "Unlocking The Mystery Of Life - Life's Origins, Evolution And Intelligent Design". A lot of smart people believe in ID, it's just that their faith has misguided them, I think.

Finally, how does God and evolution not mix? I can see ways in which it could, but you'd have to spell it out for me.

Posted by Rayne @ 11/10/2005 12:32 AM EST

Hmm...well, there are so many angles in which to tackle this God and evolution issue. From a religious standpoint, God created us in his image, is responsible for giving us life and everything else around us. He is seen as divinely good and believers aspire to follow in his footsteps (or perhaps they simply fear the punishment that may await them in hell). People are religious because they feel they owe their lives to the creator...sort of a way of saying thank you and leading a "good" life.

Then comes evolution, a concept we don't fully understand, yet pretend to know more about than we actually do. Not long ago Pope John Paul jumped onto the evolutionary bandwagon, stating that evolution was created by God. Thai has also brought this up in stating that God may have used evolution as a tool.

Religiously, this makes little sense. If we assume that God created the universe, then it took several billions of years for the first humans to appear. Lets say he did use evolution, and voila, he achieved us, humanity. Now, we would have to claim that it was by evolutionary chance, for he/she did not know the outcome. Oh, but you may argue that an omnipotent being such as God knew what he was doing from the beginning. Well then, why did he/she not create us in the first place, but rather chose to fool around with a bunch of molecules, proteins, unicellular organisms, multicellular organisms, and other "primitive" forms of life for what could be considered an eternity.

If God did not conceptualize us in his/her mind, it defeats the purpose of his/her worship. Now, that's entirely from a religious standpoint. Many more angles may be discussed, but I refuse to bore you with them...:P.

Evolution and God don't mix...

Posted by dAN @ 11/11/2005 01:17 PM EST

sure god and evolution could exist ... there are two viewpoints that you can take here ...

one that god left things up to chance and what was created was wonderful and great and thus he should be praised for it. if god created us by evolutionary chance - it still does not negate the fact that he would have set the whole thing in motion, right? perhaps he set the whole thing in motion in order to ensure that whatever beings inhabited his world would be able to survive in his world. perhaps he created evolution as a tool to ensure that whatever creatures prospered in his world.

you could also look at god as the controller of fate. if god is the creator of fate, then he would be able to foresee the evolution of humans ... and so he would still be the designer of our world.

either way, you can connect evolution to god.

faith in something, whether it be in logic, truth, god(s), etc., provides ppl with a sense of being and a sense of purpose. if there is something that a person wishes to believe in, they will find a way to reconcile it with whatever knowns exist. we see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear and believe what we want to believe. but that's really just a side bar.

back to the subject on hand, what the heck is with ID being taught in a science class. it is not science. it has no place there. everyone's entitled to their own faith, but faith if not a science and has no place there.

Posted by melpie @ 11/13/2005 11:33 PM EST

Sometimes you just gotta...

BELIEVE!

Posted by Dave @ 11/14/2005 01:12 PM EST

Oh boy!...Mel, evolution has nothing to do with fate.

As for worshipping God simply because he set things in motion...sillyness. Relating this on a smaller scale, you wouldn't credit the person that built your university for your degree now, would you?

Posted by dAN @ 11/14/2005 02:52 PM EST

All hail the mighty Flying speghetti monster! I've been touched by his noodly appendage!

Posted by djkimothy @ 11/14/2005 03:27 PM EST

God created evolution. He also created creationist. Just to make things interesting...

Posted by djkimothy @ 11/14/2005 03:29 PM EST

but maybe evolution is fate ... and fate is evolution.

sure, this isn't necessarily what i personally believe in, i can understand how others could.

relating the worshipping god simply b/c he set things in motion thing on another scale .. society tend to celebrate lots of ppl b/c they set things in motion ... for example, in the us, there are days for george washington (setting into motion the country itself) and christopher columbus (just for sailing across the ocean in the first place) ... sure celebration and worshipping are different ...
sure i wouldn't credit the person who built my university for my degree - but that's b/c there were other options available ... i would lend some thanks to the ppl who lead the way to allow women into university, some thanks to my parents who financed it, etc.

Posted by melpie @ 11/14/2005 03:41 PM EST

Mel, please, don't put evolution and fate into the same sentence anymore...pretty please?...:P

You read my mind, celebration and worship are different. On another note, we celebrate the achievements of humans that have had a significant impact on our lives. So when you mention Columbus, you're never thinking of his crew, his ship builder, etc. God using evolution would be like the storekeeper that sold the pencil to the engineer that designed Columbus' boat. Does the storekeeper deserve honourable mention? Has he set things in motion?!

Believe in creationism? Sure, worship God. Believe in God and evolution? Come worship me instead...;).

Kim, I'm not even going to tackle your post...:P!

Posted by dAN @ 11/15/2005 01:28 PM EST

It's all ridiculous to be thinking that god created evolution....just because some things don't have a scientific explanation now, doesn't mean they won't have one at some later point. Science is still being expanded upon. People should just sit back and wait for an explanation that scientists I'm sure will come up with at one point rather than shoving it into the faces of innocent and easily influenced children that a god that they may not even believe in created certain "miracles" (note the use of quotation marks). It's silly. Patience, people...patience...god and evolution don't mix. There I said it :P
evolution and fate? : two VERY different things...they cannot be one and the same. Think about all the things that have been said here. Half of this stuff doesn't make any sense...through a scientific point of view, or a religious one. Things just aren't going hand in hand.

Posted by Gosia @ 11/15/2005 03:08 PM EST

Even if scientists discover the truth of everything, there'll always be people who will believe in faith because in the grand scheme of things, it gets them through each day.

Posted by Dave @ 11/15/2005 05:14 PM EST

that's all fine and good...but trying to play the card that things that can't be scientifically explained are automatiucally assumed to have been created by a god that not everyone believes in...that's fucked up.

Posted by Gosia @ 11/15/2005 09:14 PM EST

The people who support ID do not simply state, "I don't know how this happened, might as well throw reason out the window and say that God did it." They come to the conclusion that a higher power must ordain certain principles or events *because* it is the ONLY explaination.

For instance, let's take their arguement for the creation of the universe. Naturalism fails to explain the creation of the universe, why? Because it relies on a very fallicious, and impossible statement: It came from nothing. The universe came into existence at some fixed point in our distant (or recent, depending on your stance) past, out of nothing, and from nothing. That is the problem which the ID'ers have began to see.

Something cannot come from nothing, because there would be nothing for it to come from. There is no cause for our universe naturally. Which is why a supernatural explaination is required. It is the only one that works.

You need a cause that is capable of transending things like: time, space, energy. In order to make things like time, space, and energy. So what you end up with is a very-powerful, non-material, eternal, inifite entity. Your "higher power", everyone else just calls him God.

I believe it is arrogance to simply state: "Well, evolution and naturalism can one day explain everything." How the fuck do you know? And why can't I use that arguement in support for the ID'ers? How well do you think this would go over: "Yeah, well, the church can't explain everything right now! But one day they will." You really think anyone could win an arguement with that idiotic statement? No. So don't use it in support of naturalism. Intelligent Design is science, and science and religion are not mutually exclusive terms. These were atheistic scientists who, using naturalism, ran into dead ends. Not because they weren't able to figure things out with it, but because you *cannot* figure things out with it.

~ JP

Posted by Johnny Pnewbonic @ 11/16/2005 01:47 AM EST

Science and religion are not mutually exclusive?...whoa, buddy...you must be from the south.

As for God bringing about everything from nothing...who brought God from nothing? Another deity? Oh, well, he/she was always around right? Your supernatural explanation has the very problem you're trying to explain. Open your eyes.

Posted by dAN @ 11/16/2005 08:07 AM EST

I don't see the point in arguing over this. Everyone has their own opinion just leave it at that. Otherwise the only way to settle this would be to meet up for beers, and the last person standing wins!!!!

Posted by Anonymous @ 11/16/2005 11:13 AM EST

Anonymous is right...arguing this is pretty useless

BUT!!

How does Johnny know that the Universe came from nothing?

Saying science will one day explain everything and that religion one day will are two very different statements. It's not Apollo riding across the sky which causes the sun to set and rise, and it's not Zeus who is throwing thunderbolts down at us.

Also, "God must have created this" is not a valid scientific CONCLUSION. It is a hypothesis, one which cannot be tested nor proven. Ever. All of the evidence of and for I.D. is circumstancial at best.

Posted by Rayne @ 11/16/2005 11:42 AM EST

If something exists before time, it is eternal. Meaning it had no beginning, it had no creator.

How do I know the universe came from nothing? Because that is all naturalism allows for. The universe was created in our finite past, and we know that the universe is not eternal due to entropy. So at best, it can be really old - not infinitely old. Which means at some point matter, time, and space had to come into existence from something. ID'ers say God. Naturalists say nothing. Most people side with "nothing" because they don't like the moral and personal implications a supernatural first cause would cause.

And yes, it is pointless to argue this. But I figured I'd give my two cents. dAN, I suggest you go learn something about this before you take your stereotypes and assumptions and try to argue someone.

~JP

Posted by Johnny Pnewbonic @ 11/16/2005 12:02 PM EST

JP...I'll take the blast for the stereotype, but not the assumptions (re-read your own posts). As for learning something about the subject...HA!...if you only knew who I am.

Thai, no one's arguing (yet). Just a healthy discussion...;).

Posted by dAN @ 11/16/2005 12:58 PM EST

Why does the Universe have to come from anything? Why can't it have always been here and always be here?

Posted by Rayne @ 11/16/2005 03:00 PM EST

I completely agree that we can't rule out that possibility Thai...even considering JP's entropy argument...perhaps the Universe is defined by its end and not by its beginning.

Posted by dAN @ 11/16/2005 03:04 PM EST

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